00:05 - Simon Order (Host)

Welcome to this episode of the Enabled Podcast. I'm your host, Simon Order. Great to have your company. On the Enabled Podcast, we talk all things, all abilities, inclusion, diversity and the most important thing, accessibility. And the most important thing, accessibility. Our goal is to bring you the stories of lived experience, the amazing projects, the trials, the tribulations and much more from the All Abilities Enabled community. The Enabled podcast is brought to you by the Ability Heroes organisation. On this episode I chat with Courtney Rosato. Courtney Rosato is a neurodivergent woman diagnosed with AUDHD, that's, autism and ADHD. Courtney brings a unique blend of legal expertise, lived experience and specialised knowledge, Holding academic credentials including a Bachelor of Laws, postgraduate qualifications in education and a Masters in Inclusion, complemented by full teacher registration in both Victoria and Western Australia. Relocated to WA in April 2024 and has since been driving inclusion and disability policy and organisational-wide change at the City of Fremantle. I started off by asking Courtney about her own diagnosis.

01:35 - Courtney Rosato (Guest)

I was diagnosed later in adulthood with homoerotic, so co-occurring ADHD and autism, which is obviously quite interesting because previously to the DSM-5, those two things couldn't actually coexist. So it's quite an interesting space to live in where I for quite a long time was very heavily masking and I believe that obviously having autism and ADHD probably resulted in my diagnosis not necessarily being picked up until I was like obviously later in my adult life, because obviously when it comes to my autistic traits, they're often some of my autistic traits are probably downplayed by some of my ADHD traits, so I probably come across quite extroverted and quite bubbly. So therefore I couldn't be autistic because I'm quite social but yet I also have especially behind closed doors my autistic traits are quite severe. So some of my sensory issues and some of the experiences that I have in socialising and forming social connections are actually very difficult for me. But I've had that ability to be able to mask that throughout my adult life. And I think that the thing is with women, especially young girls, in the education system we're often seen as not necessarily troublemakers. We're not necessarily the ones in the back of the classroom throwing paper at the teacher or calling out. So we especially like, I guess when you're academically quite good at school and I was quite gifted at school you kind of can get through and you've got fantastic grades, so you're not necessarily someone that's going to be provided with extra support.

03:23

Even though I was predominantly teaching myself and really really struggling socially, so that for me has been the story of my life really I realised that I was different when I went to law school and I all of a sudden felt like I was around people that were similar to me and that I could connect with socially and actually had similar interests, not just these really shallow, superficial based relationships like I had through my schooling, and I learnt in a different way to other students. And law school was really great for that. It was really autonomous, it allowed me to be able to express myself in a way that for me was very black and white and it gave me structure, which I guess my autistic traits, that I really excelled in that, in that kind of space. But it wasn't really something that I pursued or looked into until later in life, where I've previously been the last decade working in education, in the education space and most recently working in the disability inclusion reforms back in Victoria, where I completed my Master's in special and inclusive education with a specialisation in learning difficulties, and really started to explore some of the I guess, the clinical aspects of autism and ADHD and other neurodiversity and really started to identify myself in a lot of those case studies and a lot of those strategies that I was using for my own students were actually strategies I was employing in my own life. So I think that that allowed me to get by in my own life. So I think that that allowed me to get by. I knew what was effective and I was reading so many psych reports and language assessments as part of my work so I was actually taking strategies from those reports and actually putting those into practice in my own life. So that was getting me through until COVID hit.

05:21

And then I think COVID was a realisation for myself that I really was masking and when I was in my own environment and I was able to really start to feel comfortable in my own environment and I had supports around me that I didn't have in the workplace, I realised that the neurotypical workplace, the neuronormative standards that we have in place in traditional work structures was something that was really exhausting for me and was the reason I was constantly tired, I was having meltdowns at home. The people closest to me were the ones experiencing that and then I started to explore options and looking at getting a formal diagnosis, which obviously comes with its own burdens and its own difficulties, and I think for me, getting that formal diagnosis was almost like validation of all the difficulties that I've had. It almost validated like my feeling of being different and not socially connecting and finding aspects of living and everyday life quite challenging, where people that I knew could just get on with things, or that whole concept of like you learn. You learn to adapt or you learn to like it. That was something that I really found challenging. So for me, getting that formal diagnosis really validated some of those experiences that I'd had, especially those experiences I had early on, especially in my teenage years. But obviously that was nerve-wracking and daunting because I hadn't openly come out as being neurodivergent in a workplace, even though I worked in inclusive education.

07:05

So I actually, you know, was leading a report, working in the space, leading a reform. That was all about going from that deficit-based model of disability and transitioning to that social model of disability where we look at disability from a strengths-based perspective, but yet I still didn't feel comfortable or confident to be able to say I am actually a person who's living with a disability, and I think that I had to find what I meant for myself and work through that in my own way before I felt comfortable to be able to actually openly express the fact that I am autistic. I do have ADHD. There are specific accommodations and supports that I do require, but that doesn't make me any less of a person in any way. That actually makes my experience more valid in the sense that I have that lived experience coupled with those qualifications and experience. So I feel like it supports my work and it actually helps, has almost elevated what it is I can do in this space because I have that lived experience.

08:10 - Simon Order (Host)

Just a reminder, this podcast is brought to you by the Ability Heroes organisation. I went on to ask Courtney about the barriers that exist in normative workplaces for those with neurodiverse characteristics.

08:26 - Courtney Rosato (Guest)

So obviously our traditional work structures are really based around those neuro normative practices and standards. So if we just look at even pre-COVID, I think COVID's been a really great thing for the neurodivergent community in the sense that it's really highlighted the fact that work practices need to have flexibility. But if we look at just like traditional structures, I think that one of the biggest impacts that we face, or barriers we face, is neurodivergent people in the workforce is we've established systems and processes that are set up to just cater for those neurotypical individuals in the workplace. So even just look at the standard workday a nine to five. So for someone who has sensory issues that is trying to regulate their, so they might have dysregulation. They're trying to regulate their emotions. They're trying to mask maybe any type of like stimming that they may be doing. You're trying to engage in conversations that may feel awkward and unusual for you because it's not something that you're comfortable doing, small talk is difficult and challenging. There is all these other aspects other than just the technical side of work that are going on for someone who has any type of neurodivergent qualities that make that standard workday so difficult.

09:53

It's not just about going to work and doing the job. If it was about just going to work and doing the job, we would excel. We would lead the world, because that's what we're good at. The technical skills are not an issue. The expertise is not the issue. It's everything else that comes from those working environments.

10:08

We're programmed to believe that we constantly need to collaborate, which is interesting because collaboration itself could be done in so many different ways. Collaboration doesn't mean that we all have to be in the same room talking over each other and sitting there for hours trying to contribute to something. Collaboration could be that it's a team's document that you contribute in your own time, when you feel safe and supported or when you have an idea. We tend to go back to these neuro normative standards where we believe that collaboration has to be. We're all sitting around the tables together, we're all in the office together, we all have to have the same office hours and just the way that we structure our work day. I don't think it's conducive to getting the best out of people who have any kind of differences or have any kind of support needs that they require.

11:02 - Simon Order (Host)

One of the really interesting things about talking with Courtney is that she has this background from all perspectives. What I really wanted to ask was how does she imagine that people who are neuro-normative see it?

11:15 - Courtney Rosato (Guest)

We've come a long way as a society. We've really started to have conversations around difference and around disability, and I think I believe that using the word disability is important. I think that it's important that we don't water it down and we don't start to have this rhetoric around just inclusion in general. We need to actually talk about disability and being neurodivergent. I have a disability and there's disabling aspects of that that need to be accommodated. So I believe we're heading towards, I guess, more open communication around it, but unfortunately, when it comes to indivisible disability, it's been something that we haven't necessarily. We don't have a full understanding of what that looks like for that individual person.

11:59

I think that, as a young female, I often get a lot of ableism directed at me because of how I look. So I think that when you feel comfortable and have the strength which it takes a lot to be able to actually acknowledge that you are, for me, autistic, and if I express that to someone, I'm obviously expressing that to them for a reason, so I'm letting them know that I am autistic. It's almost like in one ear and out the other, “oh yeah”. And so there may be an accommodation or a support that's put in place for one day, but then give it two weeks and they just look at me and think that I'm like everyone else. So there's a lot of work to do around removing stigma around what we associate with disability or who we associate as having a disability. So when it comes to neurotypical people in the workplace, I believe that it's important to have a curiosity and have a degree of wanting to know more, and ignorance is not a justification for not supporting someone. So if I had a colleague who presented with a disability that I didn't have a strong awareness of, I would feel like that's my duty as their colleague to be able to like, have an understanding of that, and the best way is actually to talk to the person. So we can all jump on Dr Google and research the symptoms and like the, you know, autistic traits and you'll probably get like the, you know, the typical, like Sheldon cooper kind of image of like what an autistic person looks like or sounds like, and you can't associate that with myself. You know I'm female, I've done quite well for myself, I have a child, I have a husband, I live what people would say is it's like a relatively ‘normal’ life, but I most definitely struggle and most definitely have some complex support needs that I require. So the best way to actually understand individuals and disability is to ask that person or to get to know that person, so you have a relationship with that person, so that you can ask them about that, and I find that something that's not done.

14:09

I feel like we're spoken about and we're spoken for, and there's a lot of policy makers and there's a lot of people sitting in positions of authority that are speaking about the needs of people with disability, or speaking about the needs of people with an invisible disability, neurodivergent people who haven't got that lived experience to be able to cast that lens over what it is that they're actually putting in place.

14:33

So for me, I think, when it comes to neurotypical people in the workplace, it's about actually understanding that individual. Don't assume that all autistic people are the same. It's a spectrum. We're all so unique and so different. There's commonalities that exist, but once you've met one autistic person, you haven't met them all. Same as a wheelchair user. You don't know their experience, you don't understand what it is that they can and can't do or what support they require, until you actually have that conversation with them and actually get to know them. So for me it's about raising awareness and raising acceptance, but understanding that we don't just quickly turn to the internet and research every single thing about that disability. We actually get to know the person.

15:24 - Simon Order (Host)

Now, as I listened to Courtney talk about workplaces, I realised she had a bit of a passion for neuroaffirming policy. I asked her to tell me a little bit more about that.

15:37 - Courtney Rosato (Guest)

I have a legal background, so I feel like I often draw upon my own personal lived experience, coupled with my knowledge of legislative frameworks, and I'm able to look at things a little bit differently. And when it comes to these, I guess stock standard inclusion policies or neuroaffirming policies and looking at, I guess, what we're heading down this pathway now, where organisations are open to having these policies or these discussions around these policies, but it's the implementation of these policies that's lacking. So I always say a policy shouldn't just sit on a shelf gathering dust. What's the use of it? So it should be a living, breathing, active document that's meant to be engaged with and it's supposed to be. It's not something that just is set in stone and that's it. It's a policy. It can be reformed, it can be reviewed. If something isn't working, it needs to be looked at. It doesn't just sit there for two years until the review date comes around. Something isn't working, it needs to be looked at. It doesn't just sit there for two years until the review date comes around. That is the nature of policy. It's supposed to be something that we can adjust and we can make so. From a policy we can create guidelines and guiding documentation that can support changes, but what we see is these policies that just sit there and they're very based around the legislation but they're not contextualised either.

16:53

So I think that when it comes to creating neuro-affirming policies, we really need to look at conducting an audit of policy documentations that we have in the workplace, and I think that part of that process is actually having feedback from people with lived experience. And when we look at, for example, reasonable adjustment policies in the workplace, that's a big one. Workplaces have a reasonable adjustment policy. That's great ticked a box, great compliance ticking tool. We've done it okay, all right. So who knows about that reasonable adjustment policy? Have you actually trained all your managers that are actually going to be executing and implementing that policy around the nuance of that policy? Do they understand their legal requirements under that particular piece of legislation about providing accommodations and workplace adjustments? But beyond that, do they actually have a sound understanding of what a reasonable adjustment is? Would they be able to provide that kind of accommodation support? Would they be able to sit and actually facilitate a meeting between the employee that is creating a safe, inclusive space where that individual feels like they can actually request something, and do they actually have the capacity to be able to constantly monitor and review the application of that reasonable adjustment. Because what I see, and what I've seen across my career and specifically working in this particular space, is that we're good at documenting things to a degree getting better but then we have no processes in place that ensure that that particular document is reviewed and monitored, so providing an employee with this false sense that this environment is safe, it's inclusive.

18:37

You know, you've got the job, congratulations. We're going to sit down and have a discussion about how I can accommodate your individual needs, and the employee goes home and says this is the greatest workplace I've ever worked in. They actually care about me. You know, they've said that I can wear noise-cancelling headphones and you know that I don't have to sit under fluorescent lights all day. Awesome, I'm not gonna experience sensory overload.

18:57

However, three weeks later, and all of a sudden, the manager says headphones off, or you know you're required to put that camera on in that meeting, even though that was something that you clearly said was a trigger, all of a a sudden these things start to slip and three months later, you're having a meltdown, you're finding it more and more difficult to get up to go to work, you're having more sick days, and then that leads into under-participation in the workforce. And then we see these statistics that come out around under-employment, lack of opportunities in leadership positions for people with autism. We see people with autism floating between jobs and we wonder why? It's because those policies aren't being implemented, they're not being monitored and reviewed. And that is the fundamental flaw with policy.

19:44

It can't just sit on a shelf gathering dust. It needs to be something that is considered. We need to have training for appropriate stakeholders around the implementation of the policy. I believe that mandatory reasonable adjustment training should be compulsory for anyone in a position of leadership, understanding their legal responsibilities under the Act, but also understanding, you know, having a sound understanding of what is a reasonable adjustment for a person with a physical disability. What does that look like? What is sensory overload? What does it mean for someone to need sensory adjustments in the workplace? What does it mean for someone to require flexibility because they've got time blindness? Having that understanding of what those reasonable adjustments actually look like.

20:45 - Simon Order (Host)

On this episode of the Enabled podcast. You heard me, Simon Order, chatting with Courtney Rosato about neurodiversity in the workplace. Courtney brought her passion and her expertise in the field to our podcast. I'm sure we'll hear more from Courtney in the future. Thanks for dropping by. Just a reminder this podcast is brought to you by the Ability Heroes organisation. Have a great week.